Host, -

Guest: WELL, IT WAS VERY INTIMIDATING 'CAUSE

Host, -

YOUNG. >> Host: HOW OLD WERE YOU? >> Guest: I DON'T KNOW.

Host, -

30, I GUESS. BUT I'LL TELL YOU,

Host, -

WAY. THAT MY MOM AND DAD, I MUST SAY THEY

Host, -

Host, -

JUVENILE-ALIA. IT'S A HORRIBLE STUPID LITTLE BOOK. I

Host, -

MY SENIOR YEAR AT

Host, -

HE ADOPTED ME

Host, -

JUST KICK OFF BY ASKING YOU TO JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT A FEW OF YOUR PEOPLE IN YOUR BOOKS. LET'S START OUT WITH

Host, -

GIRL WHOM I MET IN THE SOUTH BRONX. I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH SOUTH BRONX KIDS FOR ABOUT 25 YEARS. I MET HER

Host, -

Host, -

DO THIS TO ME. AS SOON AS

Host, -

TO A YOUNG TEACHER WERE TO

Host, -

SCHUBERT. AND SHE HAD THIS JOYFUL PERSONALITY. THE KIDS WOULD LINE

Host, -

IN THE EFFORT TO -- IN THE EFFORT TO PUMP THE TEST SCORES, WHICH IS THE ONLY GOAL OF NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND, ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE ON...

Host, -

VICIOUSLY UNEQUAL

Host, -

TAKE STANDS ON PRINCIPLE. AND TEACHERS WHO ARE NOT AFRAID TO SPEAK THEIR VOICES COURAGEOUSLY WHEN THEY SAY A REAL ATROCITY IN FRONT OF THEM. >> Host:...

Host, -

HAPPENING. IT'S

Host, -

MY

Host, -

READ THROUGH THE

Host, -

OTHER THING THAT THESE

Host, -

BY THE WAY. I JUST -- I NEVER RELY

Host, -

YOU CAN JOIN US. EAST AND CENTRAL TIMES: >>

Host, -

Host: AND WE DO ALSO HAVE AN EMAIL ADDRESS IF YOU'D LIKE TO SEND A QUESTION IN THAT WAY. IT'S BOOK TV@C-SPAN.ORG. YOU CAN ALSO TWITTER US AND YOU'LL...

Guest, -

AND ASKED THEM WHAT YOU SHOULD

Guest, -

KNOW WHY I

Guest, -

NOT -- I'M NOT RELIGIOUS IN THE SENSE

Guest, -

ME TO BE BUT SHE GOT SOMETHING INTO ME DEEP SPIRITUALITY, AND MY MOM DID TOO, IN DIFFERENT WAYS. AND I'VE ALWAYS BEEN DRAWN TO PEOPLE WHO ARE, IF NOT...

Guest, -

CALLED NEWTON, MASSACHUSETTS. IT'S COMPARABLE TO WINECKA ILLINOIS OR SCARSDALE, NEW YORK. >> Host: UH-HUH. >> Guest: THE ONLY BLACK PERSON I EVER KNEW...

Guest, -

DID. AND THEY DIDN'T CALL HER BLACK. SHE WAS THE COLORED GIRL. THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE SAID. I USED TO HEAR

Guest, -

PARENTS ALWAYS TELLING ME HOW MUCH THEY LOVED THEIR COLORED GIRL. AND MAYBE THEY DID LOVE THEM BUT THEY SURE WEREN'T EQUAL. THE COLORED GIRLS CAME...

Caller, -

TALKS AND

Caller, -

GAVE YOU -- OR HAD ME GIVE YOU A COPY OF A BOOK THAT I HAD DONE BECAUSE I'D WRITTEN ABOUT WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION SINCE WE INITIATED...

Caller, -

GEORGIATOWN, SOUTH CAROLINA, WHERE SOME MICHELLE OBAMA'S FOREPARENTS WERE FROM AS I'VE LEARNED AND TEACHERS WERE TEACHING, OF COURSE, THESE WERE ALL-BLACK...

Guest, -

EDUCATION. THERE WERE SURVIVORS LIKE THIS WOMAN. I DON'T GIVE AN EVIL SYSTEM CREDIT FOR ITS SLIP-UPS. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THESE ARE RARE EXCEPTIONS....

Guest, -

WHOLE LAST CHAPTER IS A LONG CONVERSATION THAT I HAD WITH CONGRESSMAN JOHN LEWIS. JOHN LEWIS IS A MARVELOUS MAN, A CONGRESSMAN FROM GEORGIA, WHO GREW...

Guest, -

HE BECAME ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF PERHAPS THE MOST MILITANT SOUTHERN CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT OF ALL, AN ORGANIZATION CALLED SNICK. THE YOUNG COLLEGE KIDS...

Guest, -

EXAMPLE. YOU KNOW, I WOULD -- I JUST HAVE A MAVERICK NATURE. I DON'T KNOW. BUT I SUPPORTED THE GOALS OF SNICK AND THE GOALS OF DR. KING'S SOUTHERN...

Guest, -

EDUCATION. AND IF YOU'RE BORN IN A ROCK BOTTOM POVERTY NEIGHBORHOOD, YOU'RE GOING TO GET A ROCK BOTTOM EDUCATION. THERE'S NO CHANCE WE'LL HAVE A...

Guest, -

MOST IMPORTANT TWO WEEKS OF SCHOOL

Caller, -

GRADE. I HAD AN ENGLISH TEACHER WHO WAS ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL AND HE TOOK ABOUT TWO WEEKS TO TEACH US CRITICAL THINKING AND HE TOOK A LEFT WING NEWSPAPER,...

Host, -

TO THE START OF HIS QUESTION --. >> Host: YES. >> Guest: ABOUT CRITICAL THINKING AND HOW IMPORTANT IT WAS -- SEE,

Host, -

IS SORT OF A JARGON TERM. IT'S USED SO MUCH IN EDUCATION. WE ARE

Host, -

BUT WHAT IT REALLY

Host, -

THE CHILDREN AREN'T ALLOWED TO READ

Host, -

MINUTE. THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

Host, -

SAY, WHAT IS

Guest, -

THE WAY, WE HAVE -- >>

Caller, -

THE 50 PERCENT DROPOUT RATE

Caller, -

OF PHILADELPHIA? THAT MEANS THAT 50% PLUS OF THE GRADUATES OR THE STUDENTS ARE NOT GRADUATING AND ARE, YOU KNOW, UP A CREEK. HOW DO YOU

Caller, -

OUR SCHOOLS? >> Host: MR. KOZOL? >> Guest: GREAT QUESTION. JUST BECAUSE I CAME OF AGE IN THE '60s, I'M NOT ONE OF THESE, YOU KNOW, THESE DREAMY PEOPLE...

Guest, -

REMEMBER HIM? THAT'S REALLY SAYING SOMETHING BECAUSE HE'S AWFULLY MEAN. IMENT ONCE -- I ONCE HAD TO MEET HIM ON NIGHTLINE. TED KOPPEL ACTUALLY DEFENDED...

Guest, -

50 PERCENT IN ALL OUR MAJOR CITIES. THE CITIES HAVE VERY CLEVER WAYS OF FUDGING THE NUMBERS. SO IN SOME CITIES -- CHICAGO'S ONE, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH ALL...

Guest, -

MALES IT'S WORSE. AND IN JUST TWO CITIES, JUST TWO CITIES -- NEW YORK AND CHICAGO -- AND I MENTION THEM

Guest, -

THIS. TOGETHER NEW YORK AND CHICAGO EDUCATE 10 PERCENT OF ALL THE BLACK MEN IN AMERICA. JUST THOSE TWO CITIES. IN THOSE TWO CITIES, 5 PERCENT OF BLACK...

Guest, -

INTO SECONDARY SCHOOL WITH ANY OF THAT AND WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO WRITE GRACEFULLY AND SINCERELY, YOU DON'T HAVE A HOPE IN THE WORLD OF, OF TAKING THE...

Guest, -

SEGREGATION IS AN UNSPEAKABLE EVIL. IT'S NEVER GOING TO CHANGE AS LONG AS WE CAN PUT THEM APART IN SEPARATE SCHOOLS WHERE WE'D NEVER SEND OUR

Guest, -

AND SHOW OUR VIEWERS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHERE YOU LIVE AND HOW YOU WRITE. >> Guest: OH, MY GOD. YOU'LL SHOW MY MESSY HOUSE. [LAUGHTER] >> Host: WE'LL...

Guest, -

HERE WHO ARE A LITTLE MORE, HAVE MORE MONEY

Guest, -

LITTLE MORE CONVENTIONAL, THEY'LL SAY -- THE FIRST REMARK IS YOU COULD REALLY DO SOMETHING WITH THIS HOUSE. [LAUGHTER] BUT I'VE NEVER DONE ANYTHING....

Guest, -

TV. MAYBE NOT EVERYONE CAN RECOGNIZE THAT FACE. THAT'S LANGSTON HUGHES. AND WHEN I WAS IN MY FIRST YEAR OF TEACHING IN BOSS BE ON THE -- BOSTON IN 1964-'65,...

Caller, -

OF EDUCATION, ESPECIALLY IN THE INNER CITIES? AND HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THOSE WHO, WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN WORKING? WE HAVE AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN PRESIDENT...

Guest, -

HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT IT. AN AWFUL LOT OF THESE LIBERALS THAT I'VE KNOWN OVER THE YEARS HAVE, THEY HAVE WHAT I CALL A SORT OF -- THEY FALL INTO -- IT'S...

Guest, -

WANT. >> Guest: WELL, I

Guest, -

WHITE LIBERAL FRIENDS IN NEW YORK CITY INEVITABLY. WHO DO NOT MERELY REFUSE TO ACCEPT AND FACE AND DISCUSS THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE ABANDONED THE BLACK...

Guest, -

BUT I'M POLITE, YOU KNOW? [LAUGHTER] I SAFE IT FOR DESSERT. THEN I, OVER COFFEE AND CREME BRULEE I SAY WHAT I'M THINKING. AND, YOU KNOW, I'LL SAY TO...

Guest, -

YOU'RE AVOIDING THE TRUTH OF HISTORY, THAT WE ARE RUNNING, THAT WE ARE STILL RUNNING AN APARTHEID SCHOOLING SYSTEM. AND, YOU KNOW, IT MAKES PEOPLE...

Guest, -

I DON'T KNOW. >> Host: LINDA, MERIDIAN,

Guest, -

SPEAK TO YOU. I'M

Guest, -

IN ALABAMA AND RECEIVED A WONDERFUL EDUCATION.

Guest, -

PERSON WHO INFLUENCED MY LIFE MOST WAS MS. WHITE WHO WAS A SIXTH GRADE TEACHER WHO ACTUALLY PUT

Caller, -

CREEKING KNEES AT THAT AND SHOWED US SQUARE INCHES IN THE SQUARE YARD. AND I CAN, I JUST HELD THAT MEMORY ALL MY LIFE. BUT I, TOO, BECAME A TEACHER,...

Guest, -

ENDS. I ALWAYS SAY LITTLE KIDS ARE ALMOST AS GOOD AT ETERNAL RUN-ON SENTENCES AS WILLIAM

Guest, -

QUITE. BUT FIRST OF ALL, TEACHERS ARE MY HEROS. AND ESPECIALLY URBAN TEACHERS, TEACHERS WHO GO INTO THE SCHOOLS THAT HAVE THE GREATEST, THE GREATEST...

Caller, -

SCHOOLS AND

Guest, -

GOOD JOB, AND THEY'RE

Host, -

SAY THAT WORD, TOO MANY SILL BILLIONS --

Host, -

SILL SYLLABLES. HOW COME I JUST WALKED INTO HARVARD SO EASILY? I DIDN'T HAVE TO APPLY ANYWHERE ELSE. THEY

Host, -

I, I'VE HELPED TO BE CLOSE TO OR THE NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION WHICH REPRESENTS, WHAT, TWO, THREE MILLION TEACHERS IN AMERICA --

Host, -

FACT IS THE UNIONS DID NOT CREATE

Host, -

GO TO SCHOOL MILES AWAY AND THEN SUSTAIN IT AFTER ALL THE WHITE CHILDREN WENT TO PRIVATE SCHOOL. HOW DO WE ACHIEVE OUR OBJECTIVE GOALS OF A GOOD EDUCATION...

Host, -

Host, -

MUCH HARM NOW. I'M GOING TO KEEP SAYING THIS. I DON'T CARE WHAT

Host, -

MY DYING

Host, -

HOUR

Host, -

TOUGH. I AM AT RIGHT NOW I AM IN A UNIVERSITY, AND I WON'T

Host, -

WANT THIS. AND PRESIDENT OBAMA IS GOING TO BE SPEAKING TO THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS ON

Guest, -

IN CENTRAL TEXAS, THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, MANY OF THE PARENTS ARE UP IN

Host, -

OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS, BRINGING IN LANGSTON HUGHES,

Host, -

BACKGROUNDS BESIDES WILLIAM BENNETT'S. >> Host: OKAY, THANK YOU, CALLER. >> Guest: I GET IT. WELL, JUST TO GIVE THE BRIEFEST

Host, -

EMOTIONS. BUT

Guest, -

SCHOOLS IN GENERAL

Guest, -

THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS IS THE SINGLE WORST

Guest, -

IDEA TO BE BROUGHT TO THE NATIONAL LEVEL AS A SERIOUS PROPOSITION IN MY LIFETIME. IT WOULD MEAN THE END OF THE ENTIRE LEGACY HANDED DOWN TO US AS THIS...

Guest, -

CHARTER SCHOOLS -- A FEW THAT I'VE SEEN ARE VERY GOOD. AND I'M NOT AFRAID TO ADMIT THAT, YOU KNOW. BUT FOR THE MOST PART, CHARTER SCHOOLS TEND TO BE...

Guest, -

TEACHERS WHO, YOU KNOW, HAD GONE TO COLLEGES LIKE YALE. I GUESS, YOU KNOW, YALE ISN'T THAT BAD, IS IT? I ALWAYS SAY YALE IS FOR THE -- IS FOR THE --...

Unidentified Speaker, -

Unidentified Speaker, -

REVISIONS BEFORE THAT SECTION OF THE BOOK IS SET IN PLACE. THEN LATER, OF COURSE, THERE'S FACT-CHECKING AND THE RESEARCH. ALL THOSE BOTTOM SHELVES DOWN...

Unidentified Speaker, -

JONATHAN KOZOL, WE'RE BACK FOR OUR LAST 40 MINUTES. LOOKING AT SOME NAMES HERE THAT I WROTE DOWN FROM ONE OF YOUR BOOKS, EBONY WILLIAMS. >> Guest: YES....

Guest, -

Guest, -

I LOST MY FIRST STUDENT DUE TO

Guest, -

AN AK-47 GUN

Guest, -

HOUSING LAWS IN HIS

Guest, -

Host:

Guest, -

HIS APARTMENT BUILDING AND THE ELEVATOR WAS BROKEN AND THEY COMPLAINED AND THE CITY DID NOTHING ABOUT IT AND HE TOUCHED THE ELEVATOR DOOR AND IT...

Guest, -

WAS NO ELEVATOR THERE. IT WAS BROKEN, YOU KNOW. SO MOST OF THE KIDS I'VE KNOWN WHO HAVE DIED YOUNG HAVE NOT DIED IN VIOLENCE, IN CRIME INFLICTED ON THEM...

Guest, -

IN FRANCESA'S CLASSROOM WHERE THEY WERE HAPPY -- THOSE KIDS WERE HAPPY

Guest, -

GRADE YEAR WHERE THEY CAME TO RESPECT THEMSELVES. AND THEY LOVED BEAUTY AND THEY LEARNED THAT IT'S OKAY TO BE JOYFUL IN SCHOOL. THAT THAT'S NOT BAD. ...

Caller, -

GREATER ACCOMPLISHMENT THAN GRADUATING FROM A WELL-FUNDED

Caller, -

SCHOOL. AND I GUESS MY QUESTION IS, WHAT ARE -- WHAT ARE OUR UNIVERSITIES SUCH AS YOUR ALMA MATER AND OTHER UNIVERSITIES, PARTICULARLY, PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES...

Guest, -

WHICH. I WAS ONCE IN A DEBATE WITH HIM RIGHT ON A SENATE HEARING BECAUSE I REMEMBER TOM HARKIN, SENATOR HARKIN WAS CHAIRING THE COMMITTEE AND WE WERE...

Guest, -

A YEAR FOR YOUR CHILD, YOU'RE GETTING NOT ONLY RELAXED TEACHERS BUT SMALL CLASSROOMS AND GEORGE BUSH, JR. OR GEORGE W. COULD DO WELL ENOUGH TO GET INTO...

Caller, -

THEY'RE VERY, VERY BRIGHT KIDS. THEY'RE LIKE SPONGES AND THEY ABSORB KNOWLEDGE BUT THEY'RE VERY GOOD READERS ALSO AND THEY DESERVE THE VERY, VERY BEST....

Caller, -

SOLVED BUT WE HAVE TO HAVE THE TIME AND THE MONEY BEHIND IT TO DO IT. >> Host: THANK YOU, TOLEDO, IDAHO. >> Guest: IF I WOULD LIST FIVE THINGS, MAYBE...

Guest, -

ONE, WE SHOULD STOP PRETENDING AS EVERY PRESIDENT HAS DONE FOR THE PAST FOUR DECADES THAT WHEN HE'S ELECTED OR SHE'S ELECTED WE'RE GOING TO GIVE PRESCHOOL...

Guest, -

SOUTH CENTRAL L.A. >> Host: NUMBER THREE. >> Guest: NUMBER THREE THE HEART OF ANY SCHOOL IS THE QUALITY AND HIGH MORALE OF THE TEACHER. AND THAT MEANS...

Guest, -

IMPORTANT, CONTINUING EMOTIONAL SUPPORT TO THE CREATIVE, NOT TOTALLY CONFORMIST JUBILANT HIGH-SPIRITED, EXCITING YOUNG TEACHERS WHO ADORE THE CHILDREN,...

Guest, -

THEY'RE SO BORING. I SWEAR THEY DO A BETTER JOB OF PUTTING CHILDREN TO SLEEP. THEY CREATE A SLEEPINESS IN THE FIRST GRADE. THE WALKING DEAD WHO ARE JUST...

Guest, -

HAVEN'T SHOWN TO MY PUBLISHER AND THEY SAY, DO IT. YOU KNOW HOW LITTLE KIDS ARE. THEY'RE GOOD AT BOSSING ME. THEY SAY DO IT. THE TWO SERIOUS BOOKS I'VE...

Guest, -

AND I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THAT FOR SEVERAL YEARS.

Guest, -

MAJOR BOOKS OF MY CAREER, I

Guest, -

GOT A LOT OF WORK AHEAD THAT'S GOING TO TAKE TIME. THE OTHER BOOK IS A MEMOIR OF MY DADDY, MY FATHER, WHICH IS COMPLETE. IT'S VIRTUALLY COMPLETE. ...

Guest, -

ACTUALLY, GOD BLESS HIM, AS A PSYCHIATRIST, TRIED TO HAVE HIM PUT INTO A MEDICAL SETTING RATHER THAN A PRISON SETTING BUT I BELIEVE -- I BELIEVE STEVEN...

Unidentified Speaker, -

KEEP HIS UNLISTED PHONE NUMBER IN FRONT OF ME WITH THAT SORT OF CHILDISH THOUGHT MAYBE SOME NIGHT I COULD GET HIM ON THE PHONE AND NOW, YOU KNOW, MY MOM...

Guest, -

SCHOOL. AT THAT TIME. AND WHEN ONE OF THE OTHER -- ONE OF THE BOYS WHO WASN'T VERY NICE -- I WON'T SAY HIS NAME. ONE BOY SAID SOMETHING TO ME AND SAID...

Caller, -

HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WHO WAS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF HIM WHILE -- YOU KNOW, THEY WENT TO WORK EARLY ESPECIALLY A SINGLE PARENT. WENT TO WORK EARLY AND...

Host, -

BUT I SPENT MORE TIME WITH SENATOR KENNEDY, WITH TED KENNEDY, SINCE HE WAS THE CHAIR OF THE EDUCATION COMMITTEE AND GREW VERY FOND OF HIM. WE

Host, -

THE TIME WHEN HE

Host, -

SO

Host, -

LIFE OF

Guest, -

I'VE ALWAYS INSISTED

Host, -

SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT I'VE KNOWN, AND I MUST HAVE KNOWN WELL, PRETTY WELL THAT 35, 40

Host, -

GUESS I HAD A BUNCH OF THINGS TO SAY -- MY MOTHER

Guest, -

A COUPLE MINUTES SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE

Guest, -

LIKE TO SPEAK TO YOU IN

Host, -

TELL -- IT'S JUST MY NAME AT GMAIL.COM. >>

Guest, -

THINK WAS THE POINT OF HIS QUESTION IS THAT THE JOY I GET WITH BEING WITH KIDS, YOU KNOW, EVEN IN THE MOST DISCOURAGING

Guest, -

KNOW THAT THE DROPOUT NUMBERS STILL, I GET A SENSE OF JOY AND HOPE OUT OF BEING WITH CHILDREN. ESPECIALLY, WITH THE LITTLE ONES. I HAVE THE STRENGTH...

Guest, -

MY LITTLE BROTHER HAS EXACTLY THE SAME SNEAKERS AS YOU DO. AND THEN SHE SAID, EXCEPT HIS ARE RED. SEE, I LIKE -- I LIKE -- I LIKE THE THINGS CHILDREN...