Text Timeline
  • Text Timeline
  • Graphical Timeline
00:00:436 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Robert Darnton, whose idea was it to call this book "George Washington`s False Teeth"?

00:00:4916 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

I have to admit, it was my idea. Where I plucked that idea from, I can`t exactly say, but I`ve always been fascinated with Washington and his teeth....

00:01:052 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Why?

00:01:0737 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I asked him, you know, can you give me the straight dope about Washington and his teeth. Surely this must come up in dental schools. And he said,...

00:01:441 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Why not?

00:01:451 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

OK. Dental student A says to dental student B, why does George look so pained on the dollar bill? Dental student B says it`s because of his wooden false...

00:03:00
Lamb, Brian - Host

Why do we need to know this?

00:03:0032 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, why do we need to know anything about history? I mean, it`s a cosmic question. And my general answer is not to draw morals from the past, but...

00:03:3244 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

So, I think if we can understand how the human condition was fundamentally different 200, 300, 400 years ago, it can give us perspective on the situation...

00:04:164 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

How much of your life have you lived in the 18th century?

00:04:2040 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I suppose my family would say most of it. I mean, I have been studying it since I arrived in Oxford as a graduate student in 1960. I have been...

00:05:008 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

At one point in one of these articles in there, you slip in the fact that you are an atheist. Why did you tell your audience that?

00:05:081 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I don`t believe in general in talking about myself in my books. And I do think this is the first book I have ever used the first person singular....

00:06:421 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

But he stopped me in the middle of the tour and he said to me, "Monsieur, vous-etes Protestant?" "Are you a Protestant?" And at that point, I didn`t...

00:07:488 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Has that affected -- I mean, how many atheists do you run into in this country, that will admit that they`re atheists?

00:07:561 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, you know, I never ask people, are you an atheist or not. I felt the need to come clean at that point. I mean, otherwise I wouldn`t have mentioned...

00:09:00
Lamb, Brian - Host

What was the Enlightenment?

00:09:001 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, there is a big debate about it, and the way you phrased the question is exactly the way the question was phrased by Emmanuel Kant, (SPEAKING GERMAN)....

00:10:1029 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

So, like most movements, it has origins, which go way back to antiquity, and in particular to the great philosophical systems of the 17th century, but...

00:10:391 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

What years?

00:10:401 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, he dies in 1715, but it`s the war of the -- there are a series of wars. The last one is the war of the Spanish succession. But from the 1690s...

00:11:501 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

The king dies in 1715. A regent takes over. He`s famous as a rake, the Duke d`Orleans. He liked to talk about his rouet (ph), that is men worthy of...

00:13:091 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

So, this media grew up and out of it and out of it and the life of the young Voltaire emerged something quite different, and that is what I would call...

00:14:211 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Out of this comes his first important book, not play, but ordinary non-fiction book, "The Lettres Philosophiques." It was published in 1734, and that`s...

00:15:224 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Did anybody in Europe live in a democracy in those years?

00:15:2620 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

No. There were so-called republics. For example, there was a Republic of Geneva and of Genoa. But what does it mean to be called a republic? The word...

00:15:465 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

How many people were there in France, in Britain in those years?

00:15:5142 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, France, there`s a big debate now among demographers as to the size of the population, but I think most people would agree that by 1789, the population...

00:16:332 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Where did most of the people live in Europe, then?

00:16:3543 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I mean, it varies from country to country. The population was densest in the Netherlands, what we call today the Netherlands, that is the northern...

00:17:188 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Now, you started your French, your understanding of French, the language itself what time in your life?

00:17:2615 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I had French in junior high school, middle school as you call it now. I had a wonderful teacher of French, who was tough. Really, he was the first...

00:17:411 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Where was it?

00:17:4215 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

In Westport, Connecticut, where we were raised mostly. And then I had good French teachers throughout secondary school, arrived in college, where unfortunately,...

00:17:571 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Where?

00:17:5850 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

At Harvard. And then I went on to Oxford, and I mean, I -- I didn`t know exactly -- I knew I was going to be a newspaper reporter. I mean, that`s what...

00:18:482 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

How long did the Enlightenment then last?

00:18:501 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, it`s difficult to assign ends, final points to movements, just as it is to identify their beginnings. You know, some people would say the Enlightenment...

00:19:512 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Is that considered to be a part of the Enlightenment?

00:19:531 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Oh, yes.

00:19:542 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Then the Enlightenment wasn`t just French?

00:19:561 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Absolutely not. Excuse me. I should have made that clearer. I see when I describe it as a movement, with a body of intellectuals committed to spreading...

00:21:133 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

How much do we today owe to this period?

00:21:1660 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, we really, it seems to me, American political culture comes out of the Enlightenment. I know that there are other schools of interpretation and...

00:22:1645 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

But still, the founding fathers, I think, were men who were steeped in Enlightenment thought, who had often -- the Scottish Enlightenment rather than...

00:23:013 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

This book, "George Washington`s False Teeth," is what number for you?

00:23:046 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

You know, I`m not sure, exactly. I have -- I haven`t counted.

00:23:102 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Twenty?

00:23:121 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Something like that, yes.

00:23:135 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

And you have been based where most of your professional life?

00:23:183 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I have spent my entire career at Princeton University.

00:23:211 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Doing what?

00:23:2244 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Teaching European history, and then some specialized courses, for example, in history and anthropology as something that interests me a lot. There`s...

00:24:063 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

When were the president of the American Historical Association?

00:24:092 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

That was in 1999.

00:24:111 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

And what is it?

00:24:1225 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, the American Historical Association is quite an interesting organization, located not far from your studio, actually. It represents the history...

00:24:3753 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

It`s an attempt to first of all defend interests of people doing history. And that`s -- it`s not lobbying in some crude sense of the word, but suppose...

00:25:303 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

How big is it in membership?

00:25:332 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

You know, I forget the exact number now.

00:25:351 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Thousands?

00:25:3638 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Oh, many thousands, yes. I should have the exact number in mind, but since I ceased being president, I have lost track of the day-to- day membership....

00:26:1413 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

I asked you today when I first met you if you were John Darnton`s brother. I don`t know your brother. It turns out that you are his brother, but the...

00:26:271 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I could say three months, which would be the short answer to what you said. That is I joined the staff permanently as a reporter in the city room...

00:27:341 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

How long has he been there?

00:27:3513 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Oh, he must have been there -- the exact number of years, I don`t know, but he joined "The Times" about 1967, `66.

00:27:488 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

You also told me that your daughter, Kate, who is an editor at "Public Affairs" has been in this business now for a couple of years.

00:27:561 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes.

00:27:575 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

The reason I mention all this is it started in Westport, Connecticut, from what kind of a family?

00:28:0212 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, from a journalistic family. My father was a reporter for "The New York Times," and he was killed in the war. My mother then took over and joined...

00:28:142 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

What was her name?

00:28:1619 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Eleanor Darnton. She became women`s editor for "The Times," and then left and created a news service for women, actually, which went bust. And so we...

00:28:3514 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

The reason we`re mentioning this, what is the start? I mean, you could go across this country and find people that have idea what "The New York Times"...

00:28:491 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes.

00:28:5013 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

I mean, what is -- as I`ve read this, I`m not a French speaker, but as I read it, that was my first battle, was understanding, because you use a lot...

00:29:031 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

I think the interest in books and journalism and the way information penetrates into society is for me central. A lot of this book is actually about...

00:30:294 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

But where did you go for the 18th century police files?

00:30:331 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

There is something called La Prefecture de la Police, so that`s a section where there are some archives. But the great archives are those in the Bastille....

00:32:161 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Why was he doing this?

00:32:1716 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

A good question. He doesn`t say. I mean, I found his files and I`m going to publish them all, because it`s like a who`s who of French literature around...

00:32:335 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

By the way, define dossier. What is that in your...

00:32:38
Darnton, Robert - Professor

A file.

00:32:382 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

A file?

00:32:40
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes.

00:32:403 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Were these thick files or just one page?

00:32:4348 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I`m glad you asked, because a lot of historical research, people don`t understand the physicality of it, what`s involved. So if you like, I could...

00:33:315 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Let me just step back for just a second. You spent how long in these archives?

00:33:362 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I have been in many different archives.

00:33:382 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

But the ones we are talking about, were they in Paris?

00:33:401 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Sure.

00:33:411 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

The main one with...

00:33:422 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

With …..

00:33:44
Lamb, Brian - Host

With the 500 files?

00:33:441 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes.

00:33:453 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

If you didn`t speak French?

00:33:482 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Forget it.

00:33:502 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Couldn`t go in, couldn`t get access?

00:33:522 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

No. I mean, language is a tool for historians.

00:33:543 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

So you couldn`t afford to have an interpreter sitting there with you?

00:33:57
Darnton, Robert - Professor

No, no, no, no, no.

00:33:572 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

So that`s the first thing. You had to...

00:33:5932 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

You have to really know the language and you have to know the 18th century version of French. Now, it so happens that 18th century French is very pure,...

00:34:314 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Well, what would a day have been like for you in the -- looking at these files?

00:34:35
Darnton, Robert - Professor

OK. Well...

00:34:353 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Where -- physically, where are they in Paris?

00:34:381 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, let`s say -- the most common collection, the greatest collection is in the National Archives. And so, I get in the subway and I get out and I...

00:36:134 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Can you tell whether anybody has been in there, besides you?

00:36:1710 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Sometimes you can. Sometimes people leave -- they forget and they leave little chunks of index cards or whatever.

00:36:275 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

What I`m getting at is is there a time when you have got this and it`s the first time anybody has ever...

00:36:322 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Oh, yeah, normally that`s the case.

00:36:341 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

In 250 years?

00:36:3553 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes. And it`s a thrilling sensation. I mean, I cannot describe to you how interesting it is. Because you don`t know what`s in those letters. You have...

00:37:281 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

How long of a day would you have?

00:37:2920 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, it depends on the archives, but usually they open at 9:00, they close at 5:00 or 6:00, and then, well, what could you do but have a nice meal...

00:37:498 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

But I want to quote back to you what you wrote. You said this book is written for the general, educated reader? (CROSSTALK)

00:37:5715 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

How much education do you have to have? In other words, here, I said -- I don`t speak French and I found myself running into French all the time in...

00:38:1256 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

I would think that anyone who has a high school degree should be able to read this book and enjoy it. I mean, it was written with that in mind. Certainly,...

00:39:0818 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

You have eight chapters, and each chapter is from a different time, an article or whatever. I want to go through them just very quickly, because we...

00:39:2631 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

That is an attempt to explore the circuits of communication that actually existed in mid-18th century France, and also to indicate what the news itself...

00:39:575 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

That`s a long, that`s your longest chapter, 50 pages, but where did you do this? Where was your original presentation?

00:40:021 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

That actually is something that I was fascinated with for at least 30 years. And so, I found that in order to bring all the pieces together, I drew...

00:41:133 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

But you say, originally given as an annual presidential address.

00:41:1610 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

That was part of my presidential address to the American Historical Association. So that was an important occasion and I tried to bring together material...

00:41:264 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Third chapter. The unity of Europe, culture and politeness. Where did you give this, originally?

00:41:308 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, that actually was -- I was asked to write that by a German news magazine there, Spiegel.

00:41:381 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Did you have to write it in German?

00:41:393 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

No, I wrote it in English and they translated it into German.

00:41:423 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

I get a sense you speak German.

00:41:4530 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes, sure. I don`t write it very well. German, academic German is hard-going for me. But I spent a lot of time in Germany, and so they knew me in this...

00:42:154 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

You say Europe is a state of mind. You told the Europeans it was a state of mind?

00:42:191 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes.

00:42:201 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Is America a state of mind?

00:42:2128 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I mean, what isn`t a state of mind? It`s not as if we have direct access to some reality that`s outside of our minds. It`s there, of course. But...

00:42:492 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

What`s cosmopolitanism?

00:42:5143 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, cosmopolitan -- you know, I used the word cosmopolitanism the first time I ever was in Eastern Europe. And it was in, actually, in East Germany,...

00:43:3439 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

A cosmopolitan in the 18th century is someone who certainly does not take the nation as the main unit with which he identifies himself or herself, but...

00:44:135 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

A 1994 lecture in Tokyo. That`s your chapter four, the pursuit of happiness.

00:44:18
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes.

00:44:1813 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Voltaire and Jefferson. One of the things that caught my eye in that chapter was the reference to Jefferson possibly being a socialist, because he was...

00:44:3152 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes. Well, I`m not arguing that he was possibly a socialist, but that if you look at the concept of happiness, the pursuit of happiness as opposed to...

00:45:235 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

You scored one for George Mason in your piece, because why?

00:45:2841 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I think that George Mason was a very intelligent person, who was central in the independence movement in Virginia even before the colonies got...

00:46:096 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Did you say a lot of the state constitutions had the pursuit of happiness in it? I can`t remember. I thought you might have...

00:46:157 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

I don`t think I did. I don`t know the answer to that question, but they have -- I think several of them do.

00:46:228 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

You said, maybe it`s something else, you said that the state constitutions, however, do, two-thirds of them have adopted some variant of Jefferson`s...

00:46:302 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

That`s right. In other words...

00:46:323 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

So he didn`t invent the phrase, the idea of the pursuit of happiness?

00:46:3519 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

No. And he says in a letter, I think to Madison, this is the common sense that I`m delivering. He`s representing -- the American mind is another phrase...

00:46:544 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Who were you talking to in Tokyo in 1994 that wanted to hear about the pursuit of happiness?

00:46:5846 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I was invited to talk about happiness by the Institute for Advanced Study that had just been created in Tokyo. And they decided they would have...

00:47:444 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

So, when you spoke in Tokyo, did you speak in English and did they listen through an interpreter?

00:47:4815 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes, they did. It was simultaneous interpretation. But it was one of the least successful lectures that I think I have ever given, because it was a...

00:48:03
Lamb, Brian - Host

All Japanese?

00:48:0349 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

All Japanese. And I thought, you know, I tried to lighten things up with a few jokes. So, I told a joke. Everybody was like stone. I thought, I`m in...

00:48:526 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

By the way, after World War II and we helped write their constitution, did we throw any words like happiness into their preamble?

00:48:581 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

I don`t know. I don`t know.

00:48:597 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Chapter five. This was Harper`s 1985. The great divide, Rousseau on the route to Vincennes (ph).

00:49:061 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes.

00:49:072 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

I assume you don`t pronounce it Vincennes (ph) in French.

00:49:092 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Sounds great to me. It`s Vincennes (ph).

00:49:119 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Why did you think -- why did Harper`s think an audience wanted to hear about the great divide, Rousseau on the route to Vincennes (ph)? And where is...

00:49:201 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, Vincennes (ph) is now actually part of Paris, and it has a famous medieval dungeon, where Diderot, who for many people is the most sympathetic...

00:50:2344 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Now, why did Harper`s ask me to write about that? Well, they didn`t, exactly. They decided they would have a special issue about -- actually about gossip,...

00:51:0715 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

I have got to read this line to you. "It may seem strange that we mix flag waving and football, or that President Reagan should have synchronized his...

00:51:2242 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

I`m getting at something that I would call an American political culture or even civil religion. It seems to me Americans are extraordinarily patriotic,...

00:52:043 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Is it different at the European football, soccer?

00:52:071 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes. Absolutely.

00:52:082 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

They do not have this nationalism?

00:52:106 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

There`s nothing like it. No. They have lots of violence and riots and so on, but that`s the supporters of this team versus that team.

00:52:161 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Where did ours come from, then?

00:52:1751 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Well, I think it came from -- it welled up from a kind of, for lack of a better word, civil religion. And that`s the key idea in Rousseau`s "Social...

00:53:087 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

The chapter six is the craze for America. Conderse (ph), and correct me if I`m mispronouncing this, and Brisot (ph)?

00:53:1534 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes. Well, that`s a chapter, is a question where did it come from or what is it about? It`s a chapter about the French infatuation with America in the...

00:53:4960 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

And on almost -- in almost every issue you find an ad for a play about Americans, a new print about George Washington, letters about Lafayette, discussions...

00:54:496 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

We only have a couple of minutes. I want to get all eight chapters in. The seventh is the pursuit of profit.

00:54:552 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Yes.

00:54:571 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Rousseauism...

00:54:581 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Right.

00:54:591 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

... on the Bourse.

00:55:001 min.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

So the Bourse is the stock exchange in Paris. And there was a tremendous war between bulls and bears on the stock exchange in the 1780s. Now, you might...

00:56:0422 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

And finally, the skeletons in the closet, how historians play God. You talked a little bit about this earlier. Again, you say in -- you tell us that...

00:56:2649 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

You know, I don`t think I ever discussed that with my own teachers. I mean, I`m not a militant atheist, like my daughters, for example, are good churchgoers,...

00:57:156 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Thirty seconds. I`d be interested, did you -- your attitudes about God, did they come from all the reading and all the investigation?

00:57:217 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

No. Partly, but I -- I just never could get over the problem of evil.

00:57:284 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Then how did your kids get into the believing side of it?

00:57:3210 sec.
Darnton, Robert - Professor

Because they are independent spirits who think for themselves, and fortunately, don`t take any gaff from their father. So, I respect their opinions....

00:57:421 min.
Lamb, Brian - Host

We`re out of time. Our guest has been Robert Darnton. He`s a professor, 25 years, at Princeton. This is the book, "George Washington`s False Teeth:...

Loading...